Curse

Bryant Again · Sep 23, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm no, the henchmen already have crap builds, and knowing GW players 90% of the players will just copy some 0 micro build from pvx that would come out a few days after they added 7heros. Saying "people would only use crap builds" is wrong, as for micro, you already dont have to micro with H/H what makes you think you will have to with 7heros? All you have to do now to win pve is add discord to necros add few henchmen and T+space things.

Hey lookie, a perfect oppurtunity to go back to one of my original points which you have yet to refute. Remember this?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Heroes are far from easy to use. To use them to their best proficency, you have to outfit them accordingly to the best detail with the appropriate runes. You need to know how to put together skills from different professions. You need to *have* all those skills for those builds. You have to know what skills are used right by Heroes. And you have to know how to deal with hero/hench AI. Quite frankly that's a shit load of work, especially moreso given the fact that we're talking about the average player.

So in summation:
-If a person doesn't know how to properly configure their own bar, it's highly unlikely they'll be able to put together a bar for a hero.
-It's quite easily possible to make a bar that's even worse than a henchie (although in the later chapters they see improvement).
-In regards to "just copying a build from PvX wiki": See above quote and my earlier posts about unlock packs.

-The game's only going to be "easier" for people who know how to use all of what's listed in the above quote properly, and those people are in a very small percent.
-If you're not already benefiting from 3 heroes, you're not going to benefit from 7.

In regards to micro: I guess you haven't dealt with the awful and often suicidal hero AI?

tmr819 · Sep 23, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

making the game easier will not more fun in the long run, in the end your going to be just as bored with 7NPCs as you are with 7hero NPCs. It will be fun for a few days but its not going to "save" GW. There's almost nothing Anet can do to make the game more fun, only thing they can do is add more places like FoW for the other gods (or w/e you want to call them) The content is going to be the same with 7heros and its going to be just as boring.

(1) GW staying as it is = me not playing GW at all (the addition of MOX got me back into GW for all of a couple hours, tops...)
(2) GW with 7 heroes = me playing GW again for quite a while longer, doing more with Hard Mode, experimenting more with different dungeons, missions, quests, and party builds, etc., etc.

I can't speak for anyone else, just me. But the ability to use additional heroes *would* revive the game and would be more fun for me. I certainly wouldn't say 7 heroes would "save" the game any more than you would, just extend its life by a considerable margin (i.e., by adding many hours of enjoyable gameplay).

JDRyder · Sep 23, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

your post

at this point i can tell you to stop trolling, saying H/H is more powerful than 7heros is wrong, the IA is the same. As for builds, its like i said, give it a few days after they give you 7heros some 1 will come up with a team build put it on PvX and people will use it just like subway and discord.

How f***ing hard do you think it is to unlock skills?

both are suicidal, and henchmen are more suicidal than heros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

(1) GW staying as it is = me not playing GW at all (the addition of MOX got me back into GW for all of a couple hours, tops...)
(2) GW with 7 heroes = me playing GW again for quite a while longer, doing more with Hard Mode, experimenting more with different dungeons, missions, quests, and party builds, etc., etc.

that helps my point, it only got you to play for a little longer "a few hrs you say" and then the game got old again, same thing if you add 7heros, you'll do the same content you've already done, and it will still be boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

I can't speak for anyone else, just me. But the ability to use additional heroes *would* revive the game and would be more fun for me. I certainly wouldn't say 7 heroes would "save" the game any more than you would, just extend its life by a considerable margin (i.e., by adding many hours of enjoyable gameplay).

Id wather them wast time on next content thats new, other than painting a old crappy car.

Bryant Again · Sep 23, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

at this point i can tell you to stop trolling, saying H/H is more powerful than 7heros is wrong, the IA is the same. As for builds, its like i said, give it a few days after they give you 7heros some 1 will come up with a team build put it on PvX and people will use it just like subway and discord.

How f***ing hard do you think it is to unlock skills?

both are suicidal, and henchmen are more suicidal than heros.

Where, in any of my posts, have I said that playing with henchmen + heroes are better than 7 heroes? You've been looking at my posts from the completely wrong lens.

What I *have* been saying is that the effectiveness of your heroes, and hench how easy the game becomes, is how good you as a player are at the game. If you are *NOT* a good player with little to no direction of what to do, you will *NOT* find heroes - any amount of heroes - beneficial.

"How f***ing hard do I think it is to unlock skills?" Well, for me, since I don't suck at the game, know where to go, and know who and what to kill, it would be pretty easy - for me. For other, less experienced players I cannot say. Granted the unlock packs could simply be bought, but that comes back to the fact that people aren't terribly comfortable giving very pivotal information on the internet, especially considering that they can save their cash by simply playing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

that helps my point, it only got you to play for a little longer "a few hrs you say" and then the game got old again, same thing if you add 7heros, you'll do the same content you've already done, and it will still be boring.

Ya sure about that? Look at the revitalization that adding heroes brought. If heroes weren't added, I wouldn't be playing not because "it's too harrrd" but because it'd be too boring. Heroes made it a *hell* of a lot more fun, and I think doubling the amount you could use + 1 would be quite a cool way to go.

eximiis · Sep 23, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

that helps my point, it only got you to play for a little longer "a few hrs you say" and then the game got old again, same thing if you add 7heros, you'll do the same content you've already done, and it will still be boring.

Mox and 7 heroes are not even comparable.

Mox added a few hours of play.

7 Heroes will add months for sure. Vanquish, Elite area, Experimenting builds, dungeons etc...

Skyy High · Sep 23, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Vanquish, no. H/H is quite adequate for vanquishing; if you can't do it with them, you wouldn't be able to do it with H/H. Really, the limiting factor of vanquishing is time, because it takes quite a while to get through all 3 campaigns.

Elite areas alone, maybe. But how many times will that remain fun? How many times do you go back through a dungeon for fun? Judging by the state of DoA, Deep, and Urgoz PUGs, not too many people want to do them that often anymore. Letting people do them alone would certainly open up the areas to people beating it once for the statue...but after that, will they repeat it? Likely not.

As for experimenting builds, yes, that would be very fun, but only if there were challenges to pit your builds against. For someone who has finished all the vanquishes, elite areas, etc, and doesn't feel the need to go back and do them again, customizing a team of heroes is useless and doesn't actually add content. Which is what 7 heroes boils down to; it doesn't add content, and it doesn't really open up that much content either, it just makes the content we have more fun. That's not much consolation to players who have basically run out of content that they want to play.

Akimb0 · Sep 24, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Pugs fail most of the time to be honest. Heroes for me were the greatest invention ever. I could form a party based around a concept or idea that I wanted, rather than trying to jam together a mis-match of random player builds. If I want to play with human players I have a guild to ask, if I want to play on my own, or if I'm in one of the many missions where there arn't even pugs to pick from, why should I/we have to suffer with the rather poor henchies? At the end of the day if you could have 7 heroes, but didn't want to use them, you wouldn't have to, if you did want to, you could. I'd like that choice.

JDRyder · Sep 24, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Where, in any of my posts, have I said that playing with henchmen + heroes are better than 7 heroes? You've been looking at my posts from the completely wrong lens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Are you that retarded? Whats more powerful a H/H team or a full hero team?

no you didnt know the Q. stop posting if your not even going to read the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What I *have* been saying is that the effectiveness of your heroes, and hench how easy the game becomes, is how good you as a player are at the game. If you are *NOT* a good player with little to no direction of what to do, you will *NOT* find heroes - any amount of heroes - beneficial.

wtf are you talking about, heros are a shit ton more beneficial cause you can change builds, and its as i said, its not hard to unlock skills and people will just copy some wiki build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

"How f***ing hard do I think it is to unlock skills?" Well, for me, since I don't suck at the game, know where to go, and know who and what to kill, it would be pretty easy - for me. For other, less experienced players I cannot say. Granted the unlock packs could simply be bought, but that comes back to the fact that people aren't terribly comfortable giving very pivotal information on the internet, especially considering that they can save their cash by simply playing the game.

in the game they tell you to type /wiki when you start the game. Saying its hard to unlock skills is wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ya sure about that? Look at the revitalization that adding heroes brought. If heroes weren't added, I wouldn't be playing not because "it's too harrrd" but because it'd be too boring. Heroes made it a *hell* of a lot more fun, and I think doubling the amount you could use + 1 would be quite a cool way to go.

no new content (NF) made it fun, same for EoTN, and even if you say "no it was the heros" thats not going to make it any more fun, cause you've already messed about with 3heros its not going to be a big change in the fun factor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

Mox and 7 heroes are not even comparable.

Mox added a few hours of play.

7 Heroes will add months for sure. Vanquish, Elite area, Experimenting builds, dungeons etc...

Mox was also new content, your not going to be doing any new content with 7heros, your going to be doing the same boring shit your doing now.

Inner Salbat · Sep 24, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...comes back to the fact that people aren't terribly comfortable giving very pivotal information on the internet, especially considering that they can save their cash by simply playing the game.

That is getting easier to do with this introduction of debt cards which act like a credit card but you can only spend what is on them, we have Gift cards too which are identical in every way except 1 once you've used the cash on it you cannot use it anymore.

So put money on the card enough to pay for X from the online shop and when done throw the plastic card away it's empty done, you'd have to be on the verge of paranoia not to pick that one up.

I did this when I wanted slots/bonus mission pack & game of the year upgrade.

DreamWind · Sep 24, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

At this point, I'd be happy with 7 heroes in the online store, with the only reason being I just want to see the gigantic outrage so I would have another fun thread to post in.

Inner Salbat · Sep 24, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

At this point, I'd be happy with 7 heroes in the online store, with the only reason being I just want to see the gigantic outrage so I would have another fun thread to post in.

Then we could have another poll do you still party with people now that we have 7 heroes, I would /sign yes.

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2008, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

wtf are you talking about, heros are a shit ton more beneficial cause you can change builds, and its as i said, its not hard to unlock skills and people will just copy some wiki build.

in the game they tell you to type /wiki when you start the game. Saying its hard to unlock skills is wrong

Because the wiki plays the game for you, correct? It tells you exactly what to bring, how to kill what you meet there, and otherwise? Because typing /wiki totally takes you to the PvX wiki and tells you how to make the best builds in the game, right?

To us, yes it's easy - but so is a lot of things. For the *majority, casual player*, things are not so easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no new content (NF) made it fun-

Stopping you right there because you're attempting to define another's enjoyment.

Granted, yes, we were doing the "same content" with heroes that we did with other people and henchies. You can define it that way and say "hah I win" but it's not entirely accurate. You may be going through the "same content" but not in the same way, not in the same way at all. It has to deal with why RPGs in general are so replayable: Due to different classes and other large and alternate game-changing choices, you can pretty much go through entirely different routes all reaching the same destination.

JDRyder · Sep 24, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because the wiki plays the game for you, correct? It tells you exactly what to bring, how to kill what you meet there, and otherwise? Because typing /wiki totally takes you to the PvX wiki and tells you how to make the best builds in the game, right?

yes wiki does tell you just about every thing and if you clk builds it tells you about pvx wiki. This quote was pointless imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

To us, yes it's easy - but so is a lot of things. For the *majority, casual player*, things are not so easy.

its easy even to casual players, Ive played with a TON of them when i was in Lazy. Who have you played with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Stopping you right there because you're attempting to define another's enjoyment.

no, Im saying if you already find the game boring now than its still going to be just as boring if you add 7heros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Granted, yes, we were doing the "same content" with heroes that we did with other people and henchies. You can define it that way and say "hah I win" but it's not entirely accurate. You may be going through the "same content" but not in the same way, not in the same way at all. It has to deal with why RPGs in general are so replayable: Due to different classes and other large and alternate game-changing choices, you can pretty much go through entirely different routes all reaching the same destination.

sure your doing the same content in the different ways, but it will be easier and even more boring, its like if you played a game on the harder settings 1st, and then did it on the easier setting.

Lord Sojar · Sep 24, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Poor poor guild wars.... I still say no to this, but for some reason, I don't think it would change the current play style of PvE considering all you really need right now is a friend and his/her 3 heroes. With 7 heroes, you could just lose the single friend you have and be a complete introvert. Not a big change when you think about it.

My opinion: meh.

pamelf · Sep 24, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes wiki does tell you just about every thing and if you clk builds it tells you about pvx wiki. This quote was pointless imo.

I'm sorry JD but I couldn't disagree with you more on this. Wiki does not tell you everything. It simply gives you mission hints, like noting if an enemy uses a very powerful skill and what skill you can bring to counter it. It has never (in my experience) given me complete builds that directed me to PvxWiki, and even the hints it does give requires the player to have sufficient ability to effectively use the skill it has suggested and put it in a build that will complement it.

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes wiki does tell you just about every thing and if you clk builds it tells you about pvx wiki. This quote was pointless imo.

its easy even to casual players, Ive played with a TON of them when i was in Lazy. Who have you played with?

If wiki did everything, people would still not be having difficulties with the game. Just like being shown how to do a math problem, you'll never be able to do it unless you do it. No amount of tip and strategy sections can ever truly preprare you for the real thing. So no, wiki does not "do everything". It does not prepare you for shitty hero ai, tell you what builds/skills are used stupidly by heroes, and likewise.

But moreoever, if the game was "so easy" for so many players, things like overpowered PvE skills and consumable mechanics wouldn't need to exist. You may argue that the reason PvE skills are there to "promote title grinding", but that in no ways explains nor justifies how overpowered they are.

And again, you're attempting to coat what *you've* experienced to everyone's experience. Just like how you stated that Sailbat was "unlucky" with all the bad players, the exact same could be applied to how "lucky" you got.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no, Im saying if you already find the game boring now than its still going to be just as boring if you add 7heros.

Heard the exact same thing with adding any heroes in the firstplace.

Not to mention you're still attempting to define what other's find to bring enjoyment (i.e. you can't).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

sure your doing the same content in the different ways...

You should have stopped there, because it says a whole lot. It's pretty much saying "yeah, you're doing the same content in different ways with different classes with different difficulty levels with different items, skills, builds, etc. - but still!!!"

I'm not looking for 7 heroes to have a "piss easy" time. It's not about the difficulty (although it is for some, but it's not only solvable by adding 4 more heroes). It's about being able to have a party that's you. Not to stock half of it that's only provided by the dev or forced there by someone else.

It's also very interesting that you acknowledge how piss-poor henchies are, causing a poor indirect increase in difficulty by forcing you to play with crap. Isn't it no different than what ANet did with HM, something you're against?

JDRyder · Sep 24, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

I'm sorry JD but I couldn't disagree with you more on this. Wiki does not tell you everything. It simply gives you mission hints, like noting if an enemy uses a very powerful skill and what skill you can bring to counter it. It has never (in my experience) given me complete builds that directed me to PvxWiki, and even the hints it does give requires the player to have sufficient ability to effectively use the skill it has suggested and put it in a build that will complement it.

yes it does. On wiki it gives a a list of enemy's and the skills they use, then when you clk on a skill it tells you its counts if any.

as for builds its just about the same, If you want to do farming and need a build you can go there and find a build with full guide on how to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If wiki did everything, people would still not be having difficulties with the game. Just like being shown how to do a math problem, you'll never be able to do it unless you do it. No amount of tip and strategy sections can ever truly preprare you for the real thing. So no, wiki does not "do everything". It does not prepare you for shitty hero ai, tell you what builds/skills are used stupidly by heroes, and likewise.

no it does not play for you but it does tell you how, which was my point to start with on wiki, as far as builds, there's DoA, FoW, UW, Deep, VQs etc builds on PvX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If But moreoever, if the game was "so easy" for so many players, things like overpowered PvE skills and consumable mechanics wouldn't need to exist. You may argue that the reason PvE skills are there to "promote title grinding", but that in no ways explains nor justifies how overpowered they are.

/sigh, dont tell me we are going to go over this again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And again, you're attempting to coat what *you've* experienced to everyone's experience. Just like how you stated that Sailbat was "unlucky" with all the bad players, the exact same could be applied to how "lucky" you got.

I said he was being a dick head to them or got unlucky when he was not being a dick head. Plus hes not played with other players near as much as I have, so i dont think you can call me lucky with a few 1,000 hrs with other players. Not saying Ive never had the dick head pug, but its not often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Heard the exact same thing with adding any heroes in the firstplace.

Not to mention you're still attempting to define what other's find to bring enjoyment (i.e. you can't).

If your bored with the game now due to lack of new content or the game engine, adding 7heros is not going to keep you playing. Most people seem to think adding 7 heros is going to open new doors but its still going to be the game your already bored with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You should have stopped there, because it says a whole lot. It's pretty much saying "yeah, you're doing the same content in different ways with different classes with different difficulty levels with different items, skills, builds, etc. - but still!!!"

No cause YOUR still going to be playing the same class with the same skills, and most likely in the same way, but with full team of heros, thats the only change, it would feel the same as if you were playing with H/H but easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm not looking for 7 heroes to have a "piss easy" time. It's not about the difficulty (although it is for some, but it's not only solvable by adding 4 more heroes). It's about being able to have a party that's you. Not to stock half of it that's only provided by the dev or forced there by someone else.

How long is that going to last? A few days?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's also very interesting that you acknowledge how piss-poor henchies are, causing a poor indirect increase in difficulty by forcing you to play with crap. Isn't it no different than what ANet did with HM, something you're against?

Yea lets remove them

They are also broken when It comes to knowing shit that players cant, like whats being cast on every1, what every 1 is casting, how much damage every thing is taking, being able to know what hex/enchantment is on every thing, how much energy things have "yes i know that 1 players from EviL or WM was able to know how much energy every 1 had in GvG" etc. When you add the right build in to the mix, sometimes they can play better than the better players in the game. Some Pvp build even req you to use heros cause heros are just good at running some builds.

anyway none of that really even matters cause the heros and henchmen only suicide every now and then, when you tell them to do something dumb and they go ahead and kill them self's for you. The IA is as good as they can make it IMO for a game like GW, and i find it funny you say how piss poor the IA is and WANT to play with it.

DreamWind · Sep 24, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Then we could have another poll do you still party with people now that we have 7 heroes, I would /sign yes.

No then we could have another poll are you outraged that you have to buy 7 heroes and almost everybody would /sign yes thus causing problems for Anet.

Inner Salbat · Sep 24, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

No then we could have another poll are you outraged that you have to buy 7 heroes and almost everybody would /sign yes thus causing problems for Anet.

Well anyone with 0.1% of a brain celll knows they must get some kind of income to support the servers running, when people stop buying the game they with create more content or take the servers down.

So I would not be outraged because I understand time=money, servers=money.

sixofone · Sep 24, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Poor poor guild wars.... I still say no to this, but for some reason, I don't think it would change the current play style of PvE considering all you really need right now is a friend and his/her 3 heroes. With 7 heroes, you could just lose the single friend you have and be a complete introvert. Not a big change when you think about it.

Rajah! Nice to see you posting again! You've been off for a while.

Exactly. People are already exploiting a means to do 1+6 via 2 accounts. And having fun doing so! Though, playing solo doesn't make you an introvert. You're only able to solo PvE, not the whole game. Still plenty of opportunities to chat and socialize. It's just that, when it comes to doing quests and missions, you're able to do so when you want, with a good chance of success, versus waiting to put together a PUG and (often) fail.